1961 was a good year! I was just joking around, don't get too serious Jeff we have the molds and I don't think we could build a new Stiletto ready to sail for under $100,000. God bless you if you can!
What is the replacement cost of a Stiletto? One answer is $60,000, if the Virusboats V8 catamaran from France is comparable. The 1400 lbs. trailerable cat sleeps 4 and has a 40' mast, but draws 2.5' on its fin keel. They updated the bows with the reverse look, but the canopy idea is straight off our boats. http://www.virusboats.com
Replying to Geoffrey Lyford comments: Geoffrey - thanks for sharing the link to the V8. It is always interesting to see how the industry has advanced from the days when we built Stilettos. Based on what I saw of the V8, I have to say that the industry has taken a giant leap - backwards!
When I compare that boat to a 1985 Stiletto, I see a boat with much worse access to the hulls, less interior volume, an uncomfortable, wet trampoline instead of a hard deck with seating, no backrest for the seating, deeper draft to prevent skirting across sand bars and pulling onto beaches, more wetted surface for drag, and a huge regression in trailerability. All for, what did you say,$60K? We've got less than half of that in Cindy's completely restored, better than new Stiletto 27.
Of course, Ron is right - to reproduce a 27 today (if you had a production line running to defray costs) would be over $100K, probably closer to $130K. Why? first of all, because of the cost of building pre-preg epoxy/Nomex honeycomb structures in ovens. You need this type of structure to keep the weight down and the performance up. Secondly because that comfy hard deck between the hulls would add about $15K. Today, you would want to upgrade to a carbon mast, boom and fiber rigging - adding another $20K. You'd probably want to upgrade to daggerboards in the hulls - another $12K. It all just adds up...
After reading a number of "Classic Plastic" articles in boating magazines, about good older fiberglass boats worth restoring, I am completely convinced that a Stiletto 27 is absolutely the best value on the market. Being built of epoxy and Nomex, unlike a polyester boat, they are still as stiff and strong as they were rolling out of the factory. What goes bad are the replaceable bits - hardware, sails and paint. Twice in the last 7 years I have built brand new Stiletto 27's out of the raw materials of old Stilettos. You can either do it yourself for less than half the cost of a V8, or have it professionall done for about the same amount of money as a V8...and have all the "upgrades" like a hard bridge deck, easy hull access, etc.
It is interesting to see how your design concept dates from the seventies!
The V8 is a fast an exciting cat that does not provides easy access to the hull because they have to be closed while sailing: safety comes first.
You will not persuade anyone that an 8 meters cat is a cruising boat: it is a day sailer that can be used to sleep for a night or two
The external wings provides the best seat ever saw on a cat: you can have a look at the whole boat at a glance!
Anyone who have ever really sailed from one beach to another will tell you the truth: daggerboards always gets stuck when you leave your boat on the sand That is why the V8 choice is to include them in the keel: let's makes things easier
If you really want a hard deck we can do it but i would rather go for a trampoline and avoid 150 kg If you want your feets dry: buy a pair of boots!
I understand that you are more interested in selling your old boats than to look at the future but sorry: times are changing!
we'll be in Annapolis for the boat show in october but i hope to see a V8 sailing there before
We'll have a special offer for the first US buyer
Best regards from Britanny to all the catsailors Laouen de Kersauson export@virusboats.com www.virusboats.com
While I appreciate that you want to sell your product, you might want to be a little more circumspect in your comments if you want to earn our respect here. You are not talking to wide-eyed first time buyers on this site. You are talking to people who have been sailing and using the size and type of boat you are selling for 20+ years. We KNOW the good and bad of the experience, what works, and what does not.
I have no financial interest or egocentric reason to sell old Stilettos - I didn't design the original boat, and I'm not selling them now. What I do have, and you SHOULD have, is a deep appreciation of an old boat, so well designed in another era that it is even more relevent today than it was when first launched.
In your "We're the latest & greatest" mindset, you fail to appreciate that Stiletto really opened the daysailer/weekender multihull market that you are trying to exploit today. After that, the next meaningful product was the Corsair, an improvement in many ways from a marketing standpoint, but not as good for pure daysailing (more cumbersome and less comfortable on deck).
The V8 is just another take in a long line of designs since those early days. It's probably a pretty good boat, with good and bad compromises of its own. You will probably sell more units if you lose the "You're so stuck in the '80s, we're the new generation" attitude when posting on other classes websites - the Corsair guys aren't going to like it either.
A much better position might be (and I gave you the lead in for this...): Stilettos were and continue to be great boats. Unfortunately, it is no longer possible to buy a new one, and if you could, it would cost over $100K, because it was made of materials too exotic for the marine market. Compared to that, the V8 is a bargain. Same story compared to a $120K+ F28R.
...And just so you know - the hard deck is more than about staying dry. It's about comfort when moving about the boat, or hanging out on anchor. I have sailed high performance multihulls from 14' to 110'. Everyone on every boat avoids walking on the trampoline whenever there is adjacent hard deck available. If you continue to sell the V8 as a daysailer, rather than a high performance racer, you will find yourself offering a hard deck option - they make the boats just too comfortable to ignore.
...And, to those of us who live in Florida and sail off beaches every weekend, your comment about sand sticking daggerboards is pure ignorance. That has absolutely never happened to me, or anyone I know, ever. I can see it happening in a small cat with non-removable centerboards, sitting ON the beach, but not in a larger boat with removable daggerboards sitting with its bows on a beach. Since I'm giving you pointers on how to sell your boat, you might find that "the daggerboard trunks take up too much interior room" is a better argument.
And...if you think that my personal multihull thinking is stuck in the '70s, I invite you to sail one of my boats. Those who have, and read your post, are probably having a hearty laugh at your expense right now...
Replying to Peter Wormwood comments: Last time I had any success with a V8 was when I put a 302 in a '59 Austan Healey, I now own a Stiletto...am I following the inovative thinkers or what. These boats are older but can blow the doors of the new thinking in many ways, my own design has been shelved after sailing the Stiletto. V8, bring it on, with the price of gas it will not make it over here. OOOPPS
Replying to Peter Wormwood comments: Hi there I think that everyone who is in the sailing business is here for fun and not for making money I like my job and i like the boats we are building, we never needed to talk trash about other boats to sell ours I have to say i was surprised and upseted to see that someone who never saw our boat says that she is a big step backwards I believe it is a lack of respect and i am not used to it in this business wich is usually friendly and open minded We don't pretend to come from the future: we just build boats the way we like and it has been working like this since 1992 We'll soon post a video of the boat sailing on youtube It's freezing here but we cannot wait to sail!
Nothing is over -Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO
This obnoxious Frog needs to bite my Baguette. Take your Eurotrash cat with training wheels back to the motherland. You sail like a Spanish cow. meurs, s'il te plait
No Ron It is not DEAD. It's not even wounded. any cat builder wants to come and talk trash deserves this. It's even trickling over on Sailing anarchy where people are trying to say F-27s are "better" and Stiletto's aren't up to it.
I will continue to support and defend my ride. If you don't like how I do it, you can always log on to another site.
Long Keels on a performance cat? Give me a break!
I went to YouTube and wasted my time watching the movies posted there. Delusional Propaganda if you ask me.
Replying to Laouen De kersauson comments: Take a look at the portfolio 2008 and look at my stiletto 30 wind chill and tell me the V8 is a better boat I have less in it that the V8 ,and the hard deck has the motor and winches mounted on it.Hard to beat a tall rig 30 when daysailing,cruising or flying past all the other boats with a smile on our faces.And its a 1983 that I can still get parts for,Lets see in a few years if you can get parts for the V8 .
I would like to address your last post,, but first you have to understand this is not an open sailors forum like Sailing Anarchy or Scuttlebutt or the myrid other sites. this is a "Stiletto OWNERS" website. It was originated and is maintained by a Stiletto OWNER! The majority of postings are from Stiletto OWNERS! This is not the "Factory" website. That one exists and is well supported by Ron for factory interaction. Now back to your comments;
You said, "I think that everyone who is in the sailing business is here for fun and not for making money".
If you're in any business and you're not in it to make money then you a doomed to failure.
"I like my job and i like the boats we are building, we never needed to talk trash about other boats to sell ours I have to say i was surprised and upseted to see that someone who never saw our boat says that she is a big step backwards I believe it is a lack of respect and i am not used to it in this business wich is usually friendly and open minded We don't pretend to come from the future: we just build boats the way we like and it has been working like this since 1992".
OK I understand your pain but this site is populated with people who LOVE their Stiletto's and for good reason. We are not a bunch of unintelligent sailors who fail to appreciate the pros/cons of long shallow keels to high aspect daggerboards. We recognize the difference between beach cats and Stiletto's. Most of us sail primarily on/off beaches. I hope you can understand our objections to being refered to as out-of-date, uncomfortable, or not performance oriented.
All that being said, we do love a cat fight (on the water that is) and Im sure will stand by to defend our Stiletto's reputation as the Biggist Bang for the buck afloat. So polish your ride up and come on down. we'll be waiting! We'll soon post a video of the boat sailing on youtube It's freezing here but we cannot wait to sail!
The Stiletto 27 is a fast an exciting cat that DOES provide easy access to the hulls while under sail. Over the last 30 years the safety of the Stiletto speaks for itself.
While the V8 is DAY sailer that can be used to sleep for a night or two, I have personally gone off for a WEEK at a time with my wife and two small children. others have speent 1-2 weeks on the Gulf of Mexico and the Sea of Cortez.
External wings are nice but you can see the whole boat from siting on the Canopy Arch without the added weight and complexity of the wings.
If you use our search function you will find that there is no mention of daggerboard problems on the Stiletto getting on/off the beach. I know in the last ten years of beach sailing I've never had that problem. And there's no way the V8 keel goes to wind better than the daggerboard. And did I mention the fact that we draw 8" of water with boards up. Makes getting on/off the beach a breeze. That V8 Keel would grind off way before reaching the beach! Guess it's anchor out time for you!
The hard deck is not that heavy (I pick it up myself) and the benefits of sailing without requiring sea boots and gymnastic skills balancing on a bouncing tramp far outstrips the weight savings of the tramp. AND it's a much more comfortable place to party afterwards.
the V8 is NOT the future. Against the Stiletto, it's a step backwards. If you want to talk trash bring one down and sail it againt Peter or Ron.
You're going to have a special offer for the first US buyer? Good Luck. According to W. C. Fields, there's one born every minute.
The Stiletto 27 has merits of its own, and newer cats have theirs. Some of the features of the Stiletto are outmoded, but it remains the best value in small ‘cruisers-racers catamarans’. As a racer , it can still sustain modern competition. As a 'cruise'it takes a lot of determination to go cruising on such a cat , since any notion of comfort has to be left behind. Having sailed for 25 years in a 32 ft monohull ( and 4 in a 24 ft mononhull), the Stiletto is about as comfortable as a 16 ft monohull. I sailed from Montreal to the Saguenay river and back on the St- Lawrence last summer ( a 500 miles round trip), and I can say that it is extremely hard on the crew. No automatic piloting allowed on this boat, except when motoring or in very light airs. But ‘old features ‘ of the Stiletto are worth mentioning: the 27 has buoyancy to spare up front: without this reserve in buoyancy, I would probably have capsized by the bow in the short steep waves and large currents of the St-Lawrence. The shoal draft is also a primary feature, and the kick up rudders are also a must; just imagine the damage when a fixed rudder hits a rock!
I am about to have a new 23 jib made from the template of the original-which was shredded. The problem I want to avoid with the new sail is that the original luff seemed to be too short in that the halyard wrapped itself around the forestay when I furled the sail. The solution was to drop the halyard to reduce the tension but long-term that is not the answer. Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.
Replying to Dave Nurse comments: All the comments are helpful for me also in doing the rigging on my S23 fore stay, jib and for the reacher as well, so thanks to the regulars on the forum. The Harken jib furler on my S23 looks to be an original option. Some photos are: http://gallery.mac.com/lyfordg#100146 The fore stay rotates and the halyard with it. There is a small block inside the straps just under the swivel at the top for the wire halyard, which is the length of the luff. Another small line attaches to the wire for raising the sail and ends up gathered at the tack when jib is raised and you can detach it and fasten the wire to the drum. Notice in the photos there is a downhaul on the spool for luff tension. It works so well, I would rather not change it, so the change will have to be improved over this rig. When ordering your sail, pay attention to Ron's note, because if you use your old sail, which is not only shredded, but no doubt stretched, your new sail will not be the correct measurements. Make your own measurements of the rigging and provide these to the sail maker. Having said all this, my next step is to replace the above fore stay and furler with synthetic rigging from Precourt in Portneuf, Quebec. I still have to figure out the parts. Their parts are beautiful and strong, and the mobius splice works like a charm to wrap the synthetic rigging around the deadeye. I used Precourt materials and spliced some new shrouds, and they are pretty nice. They stretch a bit, but are easy to tension with their deadeyes by tensioning the smaller line. If anyone want so know the parts, I can give the specs, but basically I used the small series parts with the stainless steel bottom deadeye shackled to the chain plate with a 3/8 x 3/4 pin. I don't have a close up, but I will put one photo on the Portfolio 2009. http://www.precourt.ca/ Everything is buried under white frost and snow here in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Almost time to order sails, or sew them. Cheers, Geoffrey
During a break at work, yet another approach occurred to me.
We use it on the Stiletto 27 for the roller furler screacher.
That sail is flown on a second bridle and forestay cutter rigged just forward of the main forestay.
This cutter rigged wire is on a roller furler on the bottom and a swivel at the top. However, rather than hoist the screacher attached to the halyard, the halyard is attached to the top portion of the top swivel and the screacher's head grommet is attached to the bottom of that same swivel.
The same thing could be accomplished by using a wire luffed head sail, flown just forward of the forestay.
Hey, more sail....more fun...
If one is good, two is better and three is best....right?
...and what about four.....Where's my spinnaker....
I wonder if I could actually pull that off...
Wait, this can't be the early onset of "cabin fever", this early into the winter...can it?
I can usually last until at least late Jaunary before I explode.
Replying to Dave Nurse comments: I would recommend having your sailmaker measure and build the sail to fit your rig, then it should be perfect with your particular mast rake and furling system. Keep in mind a good luff tensioning system when designing a new sail. Ron
Ron is right, of course. However, I am going to post a photo from the masthead of my PDQ in Portfolio 2009 anyway, to show a common solution. Whether this is needed depends on the furler, the sail, and the spacing between the jib exit block and the forestay.
Some of the suggestions already offered solved the same problem I had with the furling lapper on my Stiletto 27.
It, of course, has the jib halyard inside the mast.
However, when I installed a furler on a different catamaran (a Newport P-19) instead of running the jib halyard inside the mast, I ran it through a Harken high strength Line/Wire turning block, mounted (in-line) just below the upper furler swivel and back down the forestay.
(You can see the type of block I used at: http://www.harkenstore.com/uniface.urd/SCCYSPW1 . The kind I used is somewhat like number 312, 313, or 314 on that web page. Depending on the block, it has a working load rating of up to 2000 lbs and a breaking load rating of up to 4,000.)
Anyway, when the jib is hoisted, the bottom of the jib halyard is secured to the top of the furler drum or jib tack...rather than near the mast base...
That way, when the forestay swivels with the turning of the furler drum the halyard also turns.
This set-up has some advantages and a few disadvantages.
Some of the advantages include, it is simple and fairly straight forward.
One dis-advantage is: what to do with the excess halyard when the jib is up.
One approach to deal with this is to install a sister clip at the correct location on the halyard cut to fit....so the shortened halyard and the removed length of halyard may be used when lowering the jib.
The sister clip and the added length of halyard is removed after hoisting the jib, leaving just enough halyard to conveniently secure it the furler drum's top with a shackle.
If you don't have a pair of sister clips handy, a length of line and a bowline also works.
This has been a simple and cheap solution and has works pretty good on the P-19 and on my Supercat 17 furling jibs.
I do not know your specific furler arraignment, but often the solution is to have the jib halyard re-directed under a pad-eye located about 4-8 inches below the mast exit. This gives a little angle to the halyard and allows it to resist the furler twisting. That is the arraignment on my PDQ (my Stiletto does not have a furler). It would not be hard to try.
Here are some dingy, small boat, small catamaran, kick-board, surf-board or life-jacket games the kids might enjoy.
Do you have any others??
1. One of the most popular games for the youngsters was the parents race in Oppi's. This is because we set the course close to the shore and the cadets could use water pistols and buckets to soak the parents as they sailed past.
2. Throw out some buoys and see who goes around them the fastest!
3. Water fight with "Super Soakers" and buckets (during a race works too).
4. Practice downwind landings on a lee shore
5. "kiss the buoys" without them getting stuck in the bridle wires...
6. If they are sailing topper type boats (Rotomoulded and almost indescructable) you can play some "contact" games like tag, if not then you have to be much more carefull.
7. We've played shinning up the mast on lasers and the like - aim it to get to the top of them mast before you hit the water.
8. Sailing backwards races
9. Sailing with out rudders
10. Release colored balloons with points written on them and have the sailors catch as many points as they can.
11. Race around the cans but first boat at every mark has to circle the mark.
12. Define a closed area, throw a ball on one boat and have them play tag with the ball. Anybody who leaves the defined area gets the tag.
13. How many capsizes and rightings can they do in three minutes. get some old tennis balls and throw them in the water, whoever retrieves the most wins.
14. I like "I'm NOT leaving my wingman." Essentially follow-the-leader where the leader tries to shake the boats behind. If passed, the new leader takes over. Fun in small boats in close quarters or between races in the starting area.
15. Do relay races with frisbee's...Do a lap, throw frisbee from 25 yards from the beach, your team catches it and goes. If the frisbee goes in the water you have to swim to get it, so a good throw will really earn you
(Below is a Babelfish translation, that I guess gets close)
" The Hydrofoil capsized at 55 knots"
AFP 21/12/2008 Update: 12:01
The Hydrofoil, trimaran with foils, capsized today off Port-Saint-Louis-du-Rhône (Rhone delta) where it tried to beat the speed records absolute with the veil.
The crew, composed of nine people, is healthy and except and the operations of towing were in hand at the end of the morning.
Hydoptère capsized then was turned over to approximately 400 m of the coast, the mast and the foils, kind of wings on which the trimaran floats above the sea, finding itself under water.
Caused by the swell then a gust of wind, the damage occurred whereas the Hydrofoil reached 55 knots. Stabilized on 500 m, this speed would have constituted the world records with the veil.
The record is currently held by the French Alexandre Caizergues who reached a constant speed of 50-57 knots across a 500 meter course with his kitesurf in Namibia on October 5."
Hello to all. My name is Mark and I'm a multihullaholic. I have a s-27 that has languished un-cared-for for probably 10years or more. it has been highly modified by some previous owner. It has been widened to 16', had the canopy structure cut off and foot wells glassed in, and hull daggerboards have been added, but little reinforcement has been done around the trunks. A ring bulkhead is installed near the cross-beam. The hulls are in the hands of a professional marine paint and repair man with a lot of experience in epoxy/exotic materials in the hydroplane world. He has stripped her down,by hand, and is ready to spray epoxy primer on the first hull. So, here's the question; because the canopy structure is gone and the footwells are thoroughly glassed in, the only hull access is the forward hatch, the dagger trunk is very hard to crawl by if anything needs retrieving/repair/inspection, so I'm thinking of canting the boards. I'd appreciate any opinions on direction to cant, angle, pros&cons, etc. Maybe I will re-work some sort of canopy-like structure later with hull entry, but that's not budgeted now.I'll be fortunate to get it in the water with the $$ I have. Oh, thanks,Ron for the bulkhead advice,etc, I'll have an order for you soon. MJB
Here you go....a sailboat that goes over 50 knots in a 22.6 knot wind... hang on to your hat.... and if you watch the video to the end, you'll see it take flight and crash.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfJK5ycx_hg
Also, if you are considering Christmas gifts for any near and dear "girl-types", you need to see this critical Training Film:
HAHAHA- Appliances are always a Baaaaaad idea- However this girl LOVES Boat Jewelry! Check out the combination of several years of gifts from my honey in Portfolio 08! Happy Holidays Stiletto Folks!
Replying to Tom House comments: FOR WHAT IT IS WORTH, I USED INTERLUX ONE PART POLY-UERATHNE DECK PAINT ON MY OLSON 30, THE ELLIOTT 770, AND WILL USE IT AGAIN ON THE STILETTO. IT ROLLS ON VERY EASY, HAS A DEEP SHINE AND IS VERY EASY TO KEEP CLEAN. IT ALSO REQUIRES NO PRIMER WHICH MAKES THE BOAT THAT MUCH LIGHTER. I HAVE HAD NO PEELING PROBLEMS ON THE FIRST TWO BOATS AND TOUCH UPS ARE A BREZE IF NEEDED.
I get a kick out of this kind of cyber humor...especially when there's a foot of fresh powder snow on my boat and I'm waiting for sailing weather by huanting this forum, sitting in front of a fire.
Replying to Tom House comments: Thanks Tom, We had a great time creating her. The paint that we used in the interior- I'm not remebering the name( they have it at West) but the reason it was chosen is because it is mildew resistant. Mildew gives me a headache and I am hoping to minimize the time in the hull breathing clorox fumes. Time will tell.
Replying to Tom House comments: Tom I have a hood that uses a pump that pumps fresh air into the hood,Its the only way to spray the epoxy paints or work in the hulls.I used Awlgrip 545 primer Awlgrip paint and Imron for the nonskid, all of it I sprayed on.I was glad when it was done but now have 2 23s that I picked up and just bought a F30 catamaran so looks like my hood will see alot more use. Cliff
Replying to Tung Nguyen Yes its a cat,just another fun project here is a link to one sailing .Not many were made,I see you have aF30 is it the same boat? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NSRwhMjG6Ro
Replying to Tom House comments: Tom - Cindy used some kind of off the shelf paint from West Marine in her boat, and I used Awlgrip 545 primer in mine. In both cases we used a roller, a brush and a respirator. When I was in her hull I noticed a little bubbling in the bilge, where water had been sitting. So we'll see long term. While the 545 seemed like a good idea at the time, and I haven't seen the bubbling problem, there's something in it that reacts with colored nylon sailbags and life jackets when wet, leaving colored stains. So we don't know what the right answer is on interior paint.
Replying to Cindy Calvert comments: I think Cindy is right and she has the boat to prove it. It is really cool that Peter helped Cindy build her dream boat. Makes me happy to see that! Love, Ron
Replying to Bob Tobias comments: Look at the last picture in the 2008 Portfolio; you will see a nice pair of removable SS rod holders I got from West Marine. They are mounted to the back of the nacelles, angled outwards. They also make excellent supports for the back end of my sun-shade.
Replying to Drew Frye comments: In that location they do not interfere with the sails, running rigging, or hoisting at anytime. You do have to get the rods in before you pull into a slip!
I've been following a mast prebend discussion on another forum. Their notion is as follows:
To tune a mast to match the luff curve of the main, connect the main to the halyard hook and hoist the main. Connect the downhaul and tension to maximum tension.
Connect the mainsheet and sheet in hard as though you were going up wind. (Note - the main is not in the luff track, it is outside the mast.)
Now look at the luff curve of the sail and compare it to the curve of the mast track.
Adjust your diamonds and spreader rake accordingly to get them to match.
That is your new "base setting" for the raked spreader diamond wires, to get the mainsail and diamond wires dialed in.
Does that sound right to any of you Stiletto guys??
Reading past posts on this sight talks about a mast prebend of around 4-6 inches being somewhat normal.
Is that (in a general sense) correct? ...of course assuming the main isn't completely blown out and in need of re-cut or replacement.
A sailor temporarily landlocked and caught in winter's doldrums just has to know.
Replying to Tom House comments: 4-6" sounds like way too much...unless you have a really old, really round mainsail. I'm guessing 2" is closer to right. Your side diamonds want to be very tight to prevent the mast from bending sideways and closing the slot between main and jib. If your jumper is loose, tightening the diamonds will push the middle of the mast forward. This is a real judgement call, but what I look for is a nice fair curve off the mast. If it is too round, I loosen the jumper and tighten the diamonds. Once the sail starts to look a little too flat coming off the mast, I go back the other way. To see what I mean, overdo it in both directions and see what happens. That will give you gross exaggerations that help you understand what to look for. From there, it's trial and error to find the best balance between boatspeed (round sail) and pointing (flat sail). If you have recent sails, your sailmaker should be able to give you some idea what sort of numbers he was designing to , as far as depth of camber (roundness) and luff curve.
Putting the main up not in the luff groove sounds like a good way to chafe the main halyard or do something else bad to your boat - these aren't 16 footers...
Remember "Clark Rockefeller" claimed related, guy who kidnapped his daughter and there was a huge man search for him and his daughter. I remember hearing he had a boat and might try to escape the country with it. Well it was a Stiletto, who knew? Looks not kept upped. I wonder if it's for sale?
Replying to Guy Grafius comments: I called the marina about a few weeks ago and its still in the water and not for sale yet.I think it will end up in one of those goverment auctions.Its still listed on the owners list under its old owners name and was Puma then also.
To protect from the tropical sun here on St John I use a product called "303 Aerospace Protectant" It was developed by the aerospace industry and is an industrial type UV protectant. It also adds luster to sunbaked plastics, lexan, trampoline etc. It isn't cheap ($28 at Budget Marine) but canopies and tramps are worth it.
I just finished making lazy jacks for the main and they work pretty well, except the bolt rope tends to get stacked up under the sail feeder, making it tough to get the main down.
We are now adding "allslip" 1/2" round, waisted, sail slugs and heavy duty batten end protectors that will be sewn to the slugs with 1" webbing. Hopefully this will allow the sail to drop effortlessly and stack up rather than spill out of the forward end of the jacks.
We are setting this boat up for day charters so performance is not as much of a factor as ease of use.
I also set up a line to pull down the genoa or jib. It runs from the head of the sail to a block at the bridle wire junction, down to the bridle wire terminus and aft to a jam cleat. The sail comes down fast and easy and the whole set up cost about $30.
Still not sure if I'm setting the dual dagger boards correctly? Any comments on this would be appreciated. As I mentioned before they have long, stainless handles and the board slides through the trunk on a track, guided by a "bolt" through the board. (Peter designed these I guess).
Replying to Han Winogrond comments: Han, as I said in an earlier reply, I did design those boards. To get the set-up right,go back and re-read that reply. Once you have the set-up right, adjust the length of the small line from the top of the board to the handle to the place where the handle is roughly parallel to the leading edge of the board. I'm having to remember almost 25 years back, but I'm thinking the handle should be slightly more vertical than the leading edge of the board.
To put the board down, you have to start with it fairly high in the trunk. If you get it part way down, it is better to pull it back up and start again. Tilt the handle back tight against the little line as you thrust - this will make the board and handle feel like one complete unit, giving you more control over what the board is doing at the bottom of the trunk. You want to use the handle to vigoriously thrust the board down - PARTICULARLY if you are sailing and there is ANY side load on the board at all. Your thrust should be in line with the angle of the leading edge of the trunk
When fully down, the trailing edge of the board should be vertical. I suggest that you get the boat in about 5' of water, put the board down, and then go over the side into the water and check that the trailing edge is vertical. Then go back up on the boat and check the handle position. That way you will know where full down is by the handle position.
Replying to Cliff White comments: I'm sure that works; I do much the same thing with a tarp, stropes (8" of doubled line with a few strategic knots and loops) on the outside and bungies on the inside. Since I started doing that 4 years ago and using wax, the canopies look younger and seem to have stopped aging.
The place I have had cracks is at the top aft edge, where less nimble guests use the canopy edge as a handle when going below, and even fall against it. The solution was to laminate a wood/glass/epoxy rib 2 1/2" wide and 1/2" thick that runs the fore-aft length of the canopy, under the handles loops, giving them a thick strong spot that they can more easily grab. It keeps them from grabbing the poycarbanate. It seem that a number of folks have reinforced the spine.
What I would love to see is an idea for a cover that could stay on even when the canopy is raised. Seems plausible, but I couldn't easily work it out. I suspect velcro on the edges would solve it.
I would love to see canopies of FRP that captured some of the utility of the Deuce Coupe canopies. Peter hit it on the head when he said it was like sitting on a waxed bowling ball; they look nice and retro, but they loose function when the waves get up, just when you need the weight outboard.
Replying to Drew Frye comments: I did make my own windows for my 30 with a oven I made and used a 115,000 btu salamander heater.look in port 2008 when my boat was in my barn and you will see my windows.I will post a picture of my oven.
Our newly acquired Stiletto had a cracked canopy. Despite drilling crack stopper holes, the cracks are spreading. Is epoxy with fiberglass cloth the best way to fix this?
I've done this repair to my Canopy and it's held up very well. i'm assuming your cracks are from the mounting holes located on the centerline and not down a side...right?
First the materials:
Acetone, masking tape, biaxial cloth with CSM matt in a strip to cover 2" on either side of the crack.
Fine Sandpaper (I use a dual orbital sander w/ velco backing on mine)
Now, Mask off the area you want to strengthen. Using the sandpaper roughen the canopy. wipe with acetone to remove dust/wax. Lightly sand again. Wipe with acetone again. Remove the tape. Put new tape (3M fineline if you have it) wher the old tape was. Precut the fiberglass to cover the area leaving 1/4" between the cloth and the taped outline. saturate this material with epoxy (I use WEST System). Squeegee out all excess from the cloth. Carefully apply cloth to the repair area matt side up, biaxial fibers running across the crack. Squeegee again to get rid of all air bubbles. I use a sheet of polyethelene over the cloth for a smooth finish. when cured peel the plastic off. remove the tape leaving a clean edge. Wash with soap and water to remove any amine blush from the epoxy. reapply new tape. Fair any pinholes, divots, etc accordingly. Lightly sand, tack cloth and paint (I used rustoleum flat black on mine). redrill the mounting holes and reassemble.
There you have it. If you need more strength perform on the inside also.
good luck! P.S. this is a common topic. you can do a search on this forum for more info!
Replying to Bob Klein comments: Canopies give the Stiletto its distinctive space age look. Unfortunately they are the weakest part of the Stiletto and they are very expensive (1700$ + shipping). I have repaired mine two years ago (glass epoxy on both sides) and it still holds but for how long? I intend to use my present canopies to make a mold to make a polyester-fiberglass canopy. The look should be all right but these will be opaque. This is of no concern as long as you do not go cruising. However there is a company (http://www.toddscanopies.com/) that makes canopies for light aircraft. They could make canopies for Stilettos for less than 400$ a piece, but they need a specimen canopy to make a mold. I would have sent mine but the transportation cost is prohibitive from Canada. They are located in Florida ( Fort Lauderdale): is anyone close by interested ?
Replying to Paul Lavallee comments: Since Deuce Coupe has odd sized canopies, Chris and I made a splash of one of them, and took it to Todds Canopies...and waited...and waited...and waited - Apparently, the guy couldn't get off his ass! So, we went to Ron and got our new canopies in a couple of weeks...'nuff said?!
If you can repair your canopy you can get a few mores years out of them. In reality $1800 for canopies seems expensive but you call Ron and they are dropped shipped to you(shipping can be a bummer), the right size using newer material than the old ones and all the kinks of manufacturing worked out. Save up and get new canopies when you can. You have a heck of boat for an unbelievable price. I doubt $400 canopies are worth the hassle or even viable. This has been talked about extensively here, the conclusion for most is, repair as best you can till you can afford new ones.
Replying to Guy Grafius comments: The best upgrade to make your boat look great is new canopies.Ron and Andy are keeping Stiletto going selling used boats and parts and canopies may be what keeps them going and he has to buy them and resell them so there not getting rich on them.Stick with the factory ones,they fit and keep Stiletto going.Or buy a 30 to get away from the canopies for $50,000.
I also fixed my one "cracked" and my other "starting-to-crack" canopy with clothe and resin.
I installed the clothe and resin only on the inside of the canopies in the stressed and/or cracked areas and left the rest "see-through".
To dress it up a bit, I also lightly sanded the canopy's outside. That left that area of the canopies with a pleasant "satin" finish and one can't see the clothe and resin through the resulting "satin" finish.
I also added a "lift strap" above both the forward an rear support bow on each canopy. That makes it so folks aren't lifting the canopy from it's unsuppported lower edge. That seems to help preserve the canopy from being overstresed as when lifting from its worse suppported area....the rear corner of the canopy.
I may add some black paint to that this year to help control UV deterioration in these same areas.
It actually looks quite nice and allows me to get more mileage out of the original canopies....and allows me to see through those areas of the canopies that aren't covered with cloth and resin.
On my boat, the areas I've reinforced are from the front bow forward and from the rear bow, sternward.
Everything else is still clear smoked see-through.
My repaired canopies have now gone through several years of uncovered exposure and are still going quite well.
When I got caught in that unexpected boat bashing, open-ocean, all-night gale, it crossed my mind how much better new canopies would have been to piece of mind.
While hanging all night to a sea anchor we had some boat boarding seas that washed upto the canopies repeatedly during that night.
It would have been a huge problem had a canopy failed.
The boat's wave piercing bows, reserve boyancy, general design, construction and continued support by Ron and the gang were greatly appreciated as we hung to a sea anchor for many hours.
I keep going back and forth between saving $$ for some great and new canopies from Ron...or spending the money on other things on the boat or on taxes, Christmas or another "most excellent adventure".
Ron, thanks for parts, advice and information and for helping us to keep these boat in the water.
Also thanks to those who contribute, like Peter and others past and present. I can't help but appreciate "Doc and the many others.
I also appreciate those who help find new and used pieces and parts at affordable prices.
I wonder if there are enough of us out here with old canopies...to significanty reduce costs by buying more than just a couple all at one time from Ron or others?
Replying to Mark & diana Olsoe comments: It may work - many have tried that approach. It depends on where the cracks are. Remember that epoxy does not hold up in the sun unless it is covered, so you will need to paint over it.
Always keep the canopies covered when not sailing. IT is the sun that does it, faster than you think. Wax helps too.
Halyards to the cross beam sound like a good way to control the mast while raising/lowering. We sailed the boat for the first time today and had a very, very good sail. I will be replacing the shrouds very soon and we'll try that out.
Peter I set up the daggerboard "hold downs" like you described and we already had a line from the long handle to the board.
We wanted to set our daggerboards at less than full depth for going off the wind. Especially the lee board which was thumping a bit. I pulled it up so the top of the board was flush with the deck and stuck a piece of wood under the short handle screwed right to the board. I was thinking about a line from a cam cleat, straddling the board to an eye strap to prevent the board from moving in shallow water, off the wind, etc?
Also if anyone had pictures of their running rigging for spinnakers, reachers, genoa's I would really appreciate it. It appears from the hardware on the deck that for bigger sails the sheet would go from the clue outboard and aft to a block then up to our ratchet cheek block and across the deck to the winch? I'm thinking that way you could winch the genoa from the high side. This would also explain the mysterious cheek blocks forward on each hull.
Replying to Han Winogrond comments: Yes, that is the way the sheets run for the reacher and chute. The genoa rigging should be to tracks and blocks on the deck. You can find the Stiletto manual in "on-line information" near the top.
It is very useful to be able to move the chute tack side-to-side on a bridle rigged between the bows or at the compression tube, though not a requirement. This is less important for the reacher.
Be careful about cleating the sheet to the chute; it loads up fast in a breeze.
Thanks Tom, Brian and Bob, All very useful tips. I will go look at the tang shackle today, perhaps that is our problem. I agree the rig should be loose going together. I have a turnbuckle at all three points so tuning after it's up is easy.
For downhaul I set up some beach cat blocks attached to the tack grommet and top of the boom . I'm hoping downhauling from the boom won't affect the gooseneck, etc. Ultimately I will rivet a couple of cheek blocks to the mast.
Ron did tell me about the daggerboards, I just can't remember. I have a call out to him. To keep the daggerboards down I'm imagining a line from the long stainless handles to a cam cleat. You're right I do need to post some pics - soon come.
Tom I like your idea of guy wires to control the mast but I don't have running backstays. Do they attach to the mast hound tang? Of course we could set up some trap wires!
thanks again,
Han
http://www.sailsafaris.net
p.s. the next video will be from S/V Fly Girl (the Stiletto) and hopefully from a kite cam. See how amazing this is here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKGupz_9mGc
Replying to Han Winogrond comments: Han - You have the daggerboards that I designed for the Stiletto 30 and 27GT. They are designed to lift like a daggerboard, but when in the down position, be able to rotate aft if you hit anything. To hold them down, we put a plastic eyestrap on either side of the daggerboard trunk, right at the front. We would then loosly stretch a piece of shock cord between the two eyestraps. When the board is fully down and rotated fully forward, the stainless shovel handles should rotate down and forward enough to be able to stick the handle under the shock cord. That's what holds them down. If you hit something, either the shock cord or one of the plastic eyestraps breaks to allow the board to pivot aft. Getting the board down and rotated forward requires a special move that you will develop over time. On the 30 I used to race, we also had a pair of SS eyestraps - one on the top front of the board, and one a similar distance from the pivot point of the handle, on the handle. We had some 1/8" nylon line laced between the two that prevented the handle from rotating aft, past the sweet spot for putting the board down. This made it a lot easier to line the handle up correctly to get the board fully down.
Backstays on my boat are just handy for temp side stays as I raise (or lower) the mast. They attach on a separate hound near the mast's top.
However, I've also used my port and starboard lazy jack lines.
I'm sure one could even use the main halyard on one side and the jib halyard on the other...or the main halyard and the mast head or fractional spinnaker halyards...or any combination of these.
My main mast hound is pretty "busy", but I'd guess anything stretched from the mast at or above the main mast hound would work just fine.
I'd guess the only "trick" is to ensure they are not guitar string tight and that the temp stays fasten (at the bottom) to a point near the outside ends of the front beam. That way the arch they will swing is the same as the arch the mast will swing.
I've got a buddy up here at Bear Lake, Idaho who's got a stripped down Stiletto 27. He often runs it like a "hull-flying" beach cat.
For fun, he's been talking about installing some trap lines and actually trapping out when helming.
Me??? Well, after seeing all the headaches, hassles and expense (experienced by others) after dumping a Stiletto and having it turtle...I'm very content to helm while sitting on the hard deck. Also, I don't need more lines and cables.
I like hull flying beachcats and we've flown the Stiletto's hull a few times...but only high enough to keep kissing the water's surface.
I mostly use the beachcats for hull flying and the Stiletto for cruising or sailing with a group of friends and kids on board.
Let us know what you do and how it works out.
Some of us are into the winter doldrums and still trying to get a garage clean so we can do some beachcat boat maintenance in the warm of the heated garage...and get some Harding trailer tires and wheels off a beach cat trailer and into the mail.
It really isn't lack of interest or procrastination... it is just many irons in many fires :) and watching a few sunsets here and there.... OK...I may have also fallen asleep a few times while watching the fireplace... gone hiking and goofing off...etc.
I think I got that from visiting Mexico so often...you know...monyana and siesta...
Thanks so much for all the helpful comments. I went out today and yanked on it with "reasonable force" and it did break free. It runs free except for one spot. It may be the splice to wire but I think it's before the splice enters the mast head sheave. Could be an internal tangle with the jib halyard.
CUSTOM DAGGERBOARDS: We are very close to sailing this boat for the first time. I am not sure how the daggerboards work? They are custom trunks by Ron and Andy at Stiletto. They have a large pin going through them which slides through a track in the trunk. I'm just not sure where they are supposed to ultimately sit? There doesn't seem to be any positive lock in the down position and they want to float up in the trunk.
We are located in the US Virgin Islands and this boat will be for charter.
MINUTAE: We've secured the gas line under the bridge deck, zip tied the new wiring across the forward beam, installed new bow lights and rigged various shackles to attach the jib sail, blocks, etc.
RIGGING: We have no downhaul? What do people set up. The original sounds like one mast cheek block, through the sail grommet and into a jam cleat? Not much advantage with that set up? I put a three to one from a Nacra 5.2 on the sail and tied a 2 to 1 onto the boom - is that a good way to break the gooseneck or is that a typical set up?
STANDING RIGGING: Our rig is extremely tight. We had to crank so hard on the gin pole the back of the boat came off the trailer. Is this typical? I was thinking of getting longer turnbuckles (assuming I could find them in the same size) to make rigging the boat easier.
So many questions from a new and very excited Stiletto owner.
Replying to Han Winogrond comments: When stepping my mast this past spring I had a very hard time attaching the bridle. I found latter that the main shackle on the mast hound tang was somehow cocked upside down and wedged. After freeing this I had plenty of length. Good Luck Brian
CUSTOM DAGGERBOARDS? You really need to post some pics of the boards, trunks, interior, and large pins! If the boards float you will definitely need holddowns. What did Ron tell you when he sold them to you?
RIGGING: We have no downhaul? WHAT? All sailboats need downhauls ESPECIALLY Cats. I have a 6:1 doubled for a 12:1. That way even my kids can adjust it.
STANDING RIGGING: Our rig is extremely tight. We had to crank so hard on the gin pole the back of the boat came off the trailer.
STOP! You should never have to crank anything this hard! I only have one turnbuckle on my Stiletto 27 and that's at the forestay. The side shrouds are SS adjustment plates When you rig the mast for the first time, rig it loose! Extend the front turnbuckle to it's longest so you can attach it to the bridle without a fight. then you can tension the rig with tightening that one turnbuckle. Frequent checks with the main halyard measuring from one shoud attachment point to the other will insure the mast is centered.
Do a search on this forum for better ways to getting the mast up and down. it's not that hard. i do it by myself usually.
Bob
PS For the price of a round trip ticket I would be glad to show you!
Anyway, I also use a down haul from a smaller beachcat. I double it by attaching it to a line running through the tack grommet and down to a fix point.
I find its greater leverage helpful. Another approach I use is to use my mast-mounted winch to apply some up-haul to the main...if the main's top isn't snug against the turning block at the mast's top.
Either works.
As for the mast stepping.... well, the maximum force occurs when the mast is down and just starting up or just before it is all the way down, when letting it down for de-rigging.
My approach is to set the mast on a ladder, located near the stern of the boat. It probably sits halfway between the mast hound and the boat's rear beam.
Its purpose is to increase the mast's angle as I first start winching the mast up.
That greatly decreases the pressure on the winch, cable and me.
You might also find a beachcat "mast-stepping-trick" of some additional interest.
When stepping a beach cat mast, I often use the trap-line on either side of the mast as a temporary "mast stabilizing" stays as I raise and lower the mast.
They control the side to side swing of the mast as it is going up or down.
The trick is to pin the bottom of the trap lines or temp stays to the extreme outsides of the front beam, so the mast base and temp stays arch from the same base point. These temp stays are not lashed or fastened guitar-string tight but have a small bit of slack in them.
On the Stiletto this is particularily necessary becasue the mast base is actually elevated on the mast ball 6-8 inches above the top of the front beam.
On the Stiletto, I use my running back stays as temp stays pinned to outside of the hull, on either side, very near where the the front beam would protrude, if it were to extend outside the hull.
This set up allows me to raise and lower the mast without the assistance of one or two other people trying to keep the mast stable as it raises or lowers, until the actual side stays start doing their job.
You will enjoy the boat as you sail it more and more.
We just put our Stiletto 27 together but can't raise the main halyard past the height of the boom? Does anyone have any idea why the halyard could be stuck? Is there a trick to this? I'm tempted to yank hard on it, perhaps it's just the wire to rope braid is a thicker going through the sheaves?
Since you just put the boat together I am assuming the sheave is not damaged and rolls freely.
Is you halyard wire to rope? If so, you probably have a wire block at top of your mast. The wire to rope slice is stiff and thick and will not easily pass thorugh the sheave. This is especially true if the halyard has not been used it a while. You can probably pull it through the sheave. I would try whipping the halyard (up and down) free it from the sheave while someone applies reasonable pressure pulling the halyard up. I would attach a tail to the halyard to it does not go out of reach when it releases.
You could also try winching it through, again using reasonable force.
If neither of those things work, you will probably need to drop the rig (or climb it) to see what is going on.
Can I assume you have a wire-to-rope halyard? If so then usually the issue is the splice binding either at the Pulley, inside the mast around the spreaders or jib halyard entrance, or at the exit fitting on the mast. The way to find out is to tie a secure (strong) messenger line of a length greater than your mast. With slight tension on this messenger line, pull your halyard up. Do you feel any binding along the way? By measuring the distance travelled of the messenger line to the binding, you should be able to identify where the binding occurs.
Sometimes the internal halyard is routed in such a way as to be wrapped around the jib halyard. You might try tensioning the jib halyard to see if this changes your situation.
Good luck and don'r forget to tell us how it worked out.
Replying to Han Winogrond comments: I had a problem once trying to raise the main in rough water and returned to a beach where I was able to grab the halyard and jostle it loose at a greater angle aft. Hope it works.
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Jeff we have the molds and I don't think we could build a new Stiletto ready to sail for under $100,000. God bless you if you can!